[00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to our weekly webinar series that occurs here on our Facebook page every Friday at noon. My name is Brianna. I'm a sustainable transportation for month in turn. And I'm so excited to introduce our speaker today. Today, we have with us Dave Cohen. He is an integrative psychotherapist in Brattleboro, specializing in approaches in mind, body modalities and eco psychology. He is the founder and director of the advice and advocacy group Dedicated Motin, new bike design and technologies for everyday bicycle transportation in Vermont. So he's going to be giving a little bit of an intro on B bike and how we move on this earth and why that matters. Someone to bring Dave up now.

[00:00:49] You. Thank you for being here. I wasn't there than I am, you know. Yeah.

[00:00:58] Yeah, it's a fun little tool we have here. Thank you so much for being here. And I gave a pretty brief introduction. So you wanted to maybe talk a little bit more about certain aspects of your work or specific projects that you're currently working on?

[00:01:15] Sure, yeah. Just start with just a really brief overview of Vimbai. You know, a lot of folks know what it's about, so and you can pull up the first line if you like. And so, you know, V. Bicheno, the whole idea around that is rebooting the bike.

[00:01:34] And what does that mean? That means like, we don't want Vermont to kind of be left behind as far as technology and design. That means, Electric says, that cargo bikes that means maybe, you know, other kinds of vehicles that are like the pebble that's made for Massachusetts. It's part like a mini by car. You pedal there, say, yes, yes. And there's solar power and so forth like that. And so, you know, really, when I first started, you know, I kind of I think I bought the first electric cargo bike in Vermont. That was back around seven years ago, eight years ago. And, you know, most people would say, like, hey, what's that thingamabob, that contraption over there? And that's really changed. And people are now saying things like cargo bike and. So, you know, that's part part of the work is really that also changing vocabulary. And so the big thing that you're seeing on the screen right now where the free bike consultation since one of the premiere kind of program of feedback that's providing these free bike consultations to all Vermonters. And it's Drogo, Vermont, paid by through vitrines, also assisted with the local motion. And I'm constantly more and more folks are, you know, emailing and waiting to find out how they can get the thing that's right for them. So we really work with people around, watch the work, their lifestyle, the train, the kind of distance they ride.

[00:03:12] And this is all about, again, you know, this rebooting the bike is about really bringing the bike into a whole new kind of ranch.

[00:03:19] You know, how far can you write a 10 mile commute with your kids? That's actually possible. Climbing the hills, you know, be able to carry cargo and kids and cargo and whatever you need to carry the overall utility, the bike really making functional because otherwise we're just not going to have that kind of bike culture that we really want. And so, you know, cause of the way. Oh, then I should also mention rebates. So there are four utilities are offering electric bike rebates. We're hoping to get state subsidies at some point. We have a demo fleet for folks to try out. Bikes were mainly doing cargo bikes, but then local motion model of their fleet after hours. Now there's another one, upper valley. So people get a hands on experience. You know, electric bikes and cargo bikes and so forth. And that kind of going, you know, slogan that we have is change the bike. The infrastructure will follow that the more people there are out there because the bike is so much more viable. That creates that kind of critical mass of people that we need to move forward with the kind of infrastructure, what I'm seeing and a lot of people saying hi.

[00:04:33] Hi, Deb. I am. And I love that.

[00:04:38] And so, you know, this is really about community transformation, how we can transform our communities, you slowing down, being way easier on on on our biosphere, on our soundscapes, our sense scapes and all that. So those things are absolutely vital for feedback. But this is I'm a psychotherapist. Part of my work also really looks at the eco psychology, the neuropsychology of transportation. That's what I'm really interested in. Of course, interested in the whole layer of things like climate change, land use of the fossil fuel corporations, animal habitat, resource extraction, that people that are devastated by that environmental racism. But when it comes down to it, you can actually just hold that. You don't have to hold that slide as it is right now. But I'm really into like, what is the fundamental thing about transportation? The thing I come up with is a number one, where sensory patterns, we have to know which direction we're going. We have to sense. The world in order move. We also have to have body sound to do that. We have to be embodied in order to move on the landscape. And then we have these emotional connections to the world that we inhabit. It's nothing mystifying here. We're animals. Kofman, 19, is kind of revealed that a little bit of herd immunity. Hey, we're hurt. So we have animality. We have also an ancestral relationship to the earth. And Ken, gaging our bodies through how we attuned to the world, through our senses.

[00:06:24] So, Brianna just, you know, opened up this first part of the slide, transportation, just some very basic Latin means to carry over. However, if you apprehend and once you hit the next couple, that's actually the same thing as metaphore. Metaphore. It means actually to hit the next one.

[00:06:48] Yeah, to carry over. So, you know, kind of leave that for you guys to kind of kind of ruminate over transportation and metaphore. One thing we know about metaphors, you can hit the next couple. Yeah. Is that metaphors engage ourselves just like transportation. There's all kinds of research that when we hear really good metaphor, our senses get engaged. All right. Those neural connections to our sensory awareness, particularly tactile senses, putting the sense of smell and sight hearing and then our whole body kind of gets involved. And metaphors also impact us emotionally and makes us connect to things in ways that we weren't able to connect to before. It's been said that metaphors are here to kind of heal the injuries of anguish. And so this is connection between transportation, Ferguson, all these same things that are occurring in the next slide. So I just came out with this. I was thinking about, like commuting with Heraclitus. What the heck does that mean? It sounds like a really good name for a book. You know, I just thought. But what does it mean? OK. Just hit. Yeah. So Heraclitus is the one that says no one ever steps in the same river twice.

[00:08:07] But it's not the same river and neither are you. So second time you cross the river, your change. I kind of differ with her class nature. If we cross same Gerberry once because as her crossing the river is shifting and so are we. It's a whole kind of I give that transformation that things are always transforming.

[00:08:29] And so, yeah, you hit those next one.

[00:08:32] Yeah. Check out all those. I thought I had actually changed that. Yeah. Here we go. Yeah. Yeah. All those things.

[00:08:38] So, you know, transportation. You know, and the love of presentations. I do. I cover all these different aspects of everything from the stipulated to proprioceptive. Well, these ecological and physical things that we experience and the act transportation.

[00:08:57] Then another one, another couple more.

[00:08:59] Yeah, yeah. You see all of those? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, OK. I got a stop sign. Okay, let's go to transportation. The next line. Yeah.

[00:09:08] Yes, the transportation we know means to carry over next.

[00:09:14] And then so the idea here is that when we're engaged in transportation, we're using our bodies to go from here to there.

[00:09:24] And we often say point A to point B, but that's a very linear way of thinking. I kind of do a whole thing on the a recession or liberalization of transportation. So, you know, this is a part with our bodies in transition on the landscape.

[00:09:41] Next.

[00:09:43] Then we translate to the world through our sentencing or feeling or thinking we have a whole sensory awareness that is, you know, really brings out the magic to the world next.

[00:09:56] And then we're transforming knows all these trans things going on. We're transformed by the experience that you might think. OK. He's going off on this whole, you know, transforming thing. But next slide. Next to him.

[00:10:12] Yeah. So don't look back.

[00:10:15] Yeah. So Heraclitus, you know, said that no one ever process saying river twice. And it's really interesting that the word commute literally means to transform. And we don't often think, you know, we think of commuters structuring. And so, you know, this work is not going that deeply into this right now. But this work is about like how do we make the mundane, extraordinary, like is set in the car, go back some motherlode. And there's all kinds of things that happen when we're on the landscape, moving crossette. And we see right here when one really basic thing that I really love and I most pay attention to is how the world moves as we're moving. And so, you know, the trees closest to if you're walking on a trail seem to be moving faster than the trees all the way in the background or the mountain or white box that it seems to be hardly moving. And that's something called motion parallax. And this is one of those magical things that you pay attention to and you're brave. I feel actually knows how every time I move, I'm seeing the world from a different angle, actually experiencing the world from a whole different aspect.

[00:11:27] And that's part of this transformation. This is part of this commute as we transform ourselves in the act of transportation. Next.

[00:11:40] And so, you know, the the big question for me that I'm often asking and I usually sometimes getting a blank stares is, you know, what is automobile mean? What is this word? What is an automobile? You know, it's amalgamation of so many different technologies. And we just boil it down to this one word, trying to think that we actually understand what it is. And, you know, what is auto mobility means. Does that imply that we're kind of disengaging ourselves or bodies or senses or our emotional tumult? You know, what don't you notice about the automobile? What don't we notice warmer inside of it? From a psychological standpoint, you know, what are the silences, the shadows of the automobile that we don't pay attention to? And where is it heading itself? You know, where is it? You know, where's the automobile going as far as the technology? And then where's it leaving us? And I think these are questions that we need to attend to. They often leave people speechless. But that seems to be changing now. Becky Johns is out there. We're always talking about this is something that's shifting. And here's this article from Farhad Manjoo that just appeared in New York Times yesterday. This whole thing about seeing the future with that car to check this article out, because it's filled with, you know, fascinating and graphic detail about how Manhattan can be transformed. And he's saying that this is just not from Manhattan. But you know what can happen if we really make space for people on their sensory awareness of their bodies and their emotional attachment to the things around them. So he kind of captures that very well in the article. And so, you know, as amazing as auto mobility is, as incredible as the automobile is to move us on the landscape and in the end, you know, just massive power that it provides for us. And a thought, you know, over the world, there is there's a dark side. And so we're gonna look at a couple of clips. This is from Jack Tatties Film Traffic with one F. And so, yeah, let let's keep that up.

[00:13:56] And Jack Cafferty. French filmmaker made the funniest bike films ever made called The Short of Fat. This is from Traffic. And here he's always exploring the sensory awareness. What happens when we reengage ourselves? Yeah, we hit that thing.

[00:14:22] So, you know, landscape, those automobiles, the sound of light mobiles.

[00:14:31] Being on the ship is one of two scenes that are passing by the crash scene.

[00:14:47] Yes, he's never seen a crash like that. Is there all that much fun? Yeah, a great deal of it is.

[00:15:20] At this point, you might not be able to hear the sound of birds, of a sudden the soundscape was revealed.

[00:15:31] People emerge from different events.

[00:15:38] They rediscovered their bodies. And that's Jack Totti.

[00:15:45] And that is a quote from often here in the world.

[00:16:03] Yes, the priest.

[00:16:08] You hear the birds? Ruxton, SCCA.

[00:16:23] I got to put it out.

[00:16:26] So you have to stop the clip right there. So, yeah, there's an exploration that's so interesting, as Jack Tutty has done in many of his films. Find those boundaries, those like silences that the shadows on that can only be reveal when this crash scene happens. So it was hidden before because these people would have never even encountered each other. There is just no chance for that. The crash, like Kofman, you know this you know, these things that happened, start revealing what's behind the curtain, so to speak. The silences, the again, the I guess of the shadow side. So let's say that next clip.

[00:17:14] And this is just really brief.

[00:17:26] They're discovering each other.

[00:17:41] It.

[00:17:45] Yeah, so it. There's another piece of social disengagement that occurs within the automobile that Jack Cafferty is exploring here. So, you know, I hope you found that interesting. I'm just there. Plug my notes because I don't have a second part of us.

[00:18:05] Yes. So not again, as impossible as it might seem to any of us that the automobile has a way of kind of getting in touch. We think, again, if the automobile, it gets into us. I like to think of this right now. Sometimes, like, I think I get frightened. Think of it. But I think of it as a corporate takeover of our corporeal experience, meaning that kind of taking over our body experience the world. And that's kind of what Jack Cafferty is exploring here. In that's a form of colonization. And it's kind of colonization I call automobile ism. It's a failure to recognize what is happening to us. And the idea of that automobile automobile ism is a form of colonization. It has to do with our lost connections, even our lost language. We just say we're driving ten minutes away. We were using a parking space. We're parking. Those words are almost meaningless because we're not even really inspecting what it is that we're doing. They're just shortcuts are kind of short circuiting our awareness of who we are and our relationships to the social and more the human world. Are the comments, the Arab land, landscapes? And so, you know, it's definitely for me. You know, I look it as a form of conversation. And so. Yeah. Let's segue of that next slide.

[00:19:32] Yeah. You can tap a.

[00:19:35] Again, yeah, so automobile. It's a failure to recognize, you know, what what's going on when technology becomes normal. It doesn't matter what it does to the balance of thing, and it just takes over. This is from Bruce Wiltshire, who wrote a book called The Primal Roots of Modern Addiction. Next. And yeah, yeah. Just to keep right there, yeah. So, you know, automobiles and our failure to recognize, you know, what's happened to us as we've got kind of conform to the ideology of machines, power, it's, you know, it's comfort or at least perceived comfort.

[00:20:18] So. Yeah. Next one.

[00:20:21] And this is a quote from Artie Lange. And it has four layers to it. And I think this is four for me. This just has a ton of meaning. Our behavior is a function of our experience.

[00:20:37] It makes sense. You know how we behave. And the world has so much to do with how we experience world. Next.

[00:20:46] And we act according to the way that we see things. So, you know, we see there's a road map, right? Got cars. That's what we do.

[00:20:52] You know, that's how we learn. Next.

[00:20:56] But if our experience is destroyed, like our experience of the world around us, it's destroyed. This is sort of like an equation here. Our behavior will be destructive because we don't even know what we're doing. We don't know the language and what we're saying. We literally don't know the impact we're having on the world, because in the case of the automobile, we're a kind of dissociated from from those impacts. That's part of the architecture of the automobile. Next. And if our experience is destroyed, we have lost around selves. This is a forward ad where, you know, people are making up the body of this SUV, kind of an eerie thing. It was like it was used in Canada. And I you know, I would never use something like this. But it's really instructive, this kind of conformity and this, you know, dissociation from who we are and what we're doing and how we're becoming more like a machine. And next. They are. And that's from Ardi dealings book the politics of experience, just even the titles is really interesting. And here's the final bit here. So, yeah, you can kind of scroll through. Sure. Go. You know, we think that we're going to solve the problem. You can kind of tap on this, Brianna, you know, through electrification or, you know, whatever. But, you know, I think that electrified vehicles. That's OK. But we're still going to be left with so many of the same things, you know, as far as our communities, our connection to each other, our connection to the more than human world. Listen, nature deficit disorder. Keep on going. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the more you guy. Yeah. And then I click again. We we and we're not even thinking about this. See if we don't hear about it, we don't talk about so much curse. That's trying to shift. And last one. Yeah. And I says the problem is that we imagine we solve the problem with the electric car. Of course. And many of you are, you know, on the other side of this. But we know that a lot of people that think this is like the ultimate solution. Well, that's starting to kind of loose abstraction. Next slide.

[00:23:11] You have an excellent question.

[00:23:16] Oh, yeah. So, yeah, a little bicycle heresy. I just want to kind of talk about this and last. There's less peace here. No bicycle's grand, except we have color. It's a eye. These are pictures from a consultation I just took the other day with the family. That I want to get a cargo bike, which, like, they're getting one really cool. And, you know, we're talking about that. You know, you can't have a green car. It's just no way. It's an industrial product. So it's a bicycle. It's not green. You know, and there's nothing green about bicycle except next. It only becomes green when we get on it and we ride it. And that is of the essence. And so says our sensory embodied emotional awareness of the world and guy I'm playing this and Heraclitus and actually say that.

[00:24:13] So I'm just wondering if any of you guys saw that. No, he didn't say that. I should have crossed that out. That was that's really that's too silly. But so, yeah, I saw some people this may not be heresy.

[00:24:25] But, you know, just thinking about this, it makes the I give an electric car or a car bomb, a self-driving car that labeling that brain an absolutely absurd.

[00:24:38] Next slide.

[00:24:39] If there is one. Oh, yes. The very final piece. Now you have a drum roll. Are we OK? Time me. Just check the time. All right. Yeah. This the last thing we can just talk about the rudiments of perceptual experience. And you know, you can hit that, Brianna. Yeah. Humans are tuned for relationship. The eyes scan the tongue, ears, nostrils. Those are all gates where a body receives the nourishment of otherness. And next. And, you know, these these shattered voices and feathered bodies. He's breathing shapes our family. You know, who struggled with engaged with, you know, suffered and celebrated. This is from David Abrams book, The Star of a Centrist. Just a classic book on our kind of us, the sensory beings. And then finally, he says, you know, today we participate almost exclusively with other humans and with our own human made technologies is a precarious situation given given our age old reciprocity with the many voiced landscape. I highly recommend this book. So there we are. I have more slides, but I think I'm kind of running out of time and maybe some questions.

[00:25:57] So, Brianna, I would do that. That was awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah.

[00:26:02] So we have a couple questions in the comments section. Just to start off, I have one question. So how do you develop all of your thoughts, opinions and views on transportation?

[00:26:15] Well, through my study of eco psychology, so really getting to the core of the rudiments of who we are and how we relate to the world more than human world and to the social fabric that we're all engaged in. So that's a primary interest. And that's why the work I do with clients is around, like how we can bring ourselves back to a context because we've been decontextualized in so many different ways.

[00:26:43] I think that's a really powerful tool towards success. Contextualization from this world, both social and ecological.

[00:26:53] Definitely. And this presentation alone completely opened my eyes and my mind to things I had never thought about before. So I was just interested on how you got there. So I'm going to switch to just some questions that some of the viewers have. Our first is from Jacob Weinstein. Oh, I'm sorry. That's not right. Our first is from Jack Hanson. And he's wondering, do you have any stats on the number of bikes in Vermont by year sales?

[00:27:21] There was a survey about four years ago. Jack, I can send it over to you, but we've been trying to get the Vermont Engine Investment Corporation and Efficiency Vermont to do another survey. I'm getting lots of reports from bike shops selling out of 30 bikes. I mean, it's it's really pretty intense. I know that shops here, Roberto sold out and they had to get another order in Baton Kill. I was just on a conference with battered kill bikes. Barock there has is selling like nobody's business. So and I know from Green Mountain Power.

[00:28:04] Yes. Several hundred rebates and access. So I applied for. Yeah. That's happening.

[00:28:13] And I think that your answer to that kind of responded to Tiguan question is also an intern for a sustainable transportation Vermont. And when she thinks of biking, cities like Copenhagen Ebanks haven't really been an essential part of transforming transportation. To what extent do you think banks will transfer form transportation in Vermont?

[00:28:35] Well, a liquid like Holland and the majority of bikes now are Ebanks that are being sold. So Copenhagen's relatively flat. People are strong. And you know how we'd like to think Vermonters are strong. But when I came here, like, I like it. Come on, let's not hide that automobile. Let's say let's get on the bike. I was surprised how few people were riding through the winter. Copenhagen has such a strong bicycle identity. There are bikes there. And certainly the car, a lot of car, the bikes are more and more electrified.

[00:29:09] Christiane, one of the first cargo by companies has now a whole lot of electric cargo bikes. Bullet bullet bikes are all electrified, but know Copenhagen.

[00:29:23] That's your choice. But if you're going to be here, like in Brattleboro, you don't have electric assist and you're maybe in your 70s or 80s.

[00:29:30] You're going to use a bike far less for transportation. You have a family, far less cargo bike and forget it, brown paper. Everything's uphill or down.

[00:29:42] Your range will be severely limited. So that's where ISIS also helps with the mitigation of really, really poor infrastructure.

[00:29:51] You know, you just have way more commander for the road where there isn't the kind of infrastructure we we should have. And that means more people. Right. And that means those are those people that are going to create that critical mass, that v bike form.

[00:30:06] Definitely. And speaking about more people writing, you had asked to also comment. Do you think you should push a lot of people use bikes and try to convert as many drivers to bikers as possible or stay away from them and decouple ourselves from technology?

[00:30:34] Where do you use technology? However, we do it. I mean, we use shoes. Probably you might get on a bus and say, you know, technology.

[00:30:44] That's a whole kind of area that I also explore and other presentations, the meaning of technology, what it means to use technology will always be technological creatures. But there is no ways that we can use technology with no degree of mind set kind of responsibility. That's what's important. You know, if you are interested in that, you know, some of the work I've done around Marshall McLuhan, who is kind of like a real investigator of transfer of technology and how it influences us. He said the medium is massive, kind of a sort of what he called a probe makes us think, you know what, how do technology, if we use how do they mediate or experience the world? That's what he's interested in. And so that's a whole nother presentation.

[00:31:41] Well, Karen has a question about my site, transportation safety. So have you thought about or heard about how smart bikes, bikes and smart cars interact and what that means for the future of transportation, for safety and for people?

[00:32:02] Yeah. Well, you know, the smart car thing. That, you know, that's coming along and the car bots, you know, kind of delayed at this point as far as implementing them by car bots, I mean, you know, autonomous, what they call autonomous vehicles. And yeah, there's a lot of questions about, you know, how they're gonna notice a cyclist, particularly a cyclist without a Heilman and maybe riding in the wrong direction.

[00:32:27] A lot of questions there. Smart bikes. Yeah.

[00:32:31] Bikes are they're all being linked up like electric bikes can be linked up through your smartphone. I don't have a smartphone, some kind of loss on that. My phone is actually pretty smart, but it's.

[00:32:45] Oh, wow. Things I mean, it's pretty amazing. I consider it smart.

[00:32:51] So, yeah, there's going to be a, you know, a fascinating field, you know, safety and how all these things intersect. For me, you know, I love the technology of electric bikes, but it's really not about technology. For me, it's about who we are as a species and how we can retain our capac.

[00:33:12] She's the best capacities we have to perceive and make decisions based on being a human being less blended with the technologies we use.

[00:33:24] Definitely, definitely. And this question is kind of in response to your idea that no bike is green. So Paige, also an intern for Sustainable Transportation, Vermont. She's asking there are there numbers to compare the industrial process for e for its normal bikes?

[00:33:45] Yeah, for sure. And know there's a number of articles that you'll find online about that. So, you know, electric bike, you're talking about certainly magnets now because that's part of the whole motor thing. And then there's all kinds of electronics. There is a sound display. There's, you know, a kind of a keypad that you control the bike with. And then there's a battery. Battery technology. So there's a lot there. So certainly if you're talking about research consumption or standard bike over a bike, there's a considerable difference. However, at the same time, all the studies you're showing, and especially in hilly environments, people will just ride more and replace a car, if you like. So and then you get to cargo bikes and then ISIS becomes an absolute necessity for them.

[00:34:44] Definitely. And how can we make bikes an appealing option in such a car centric society? So, again, how can we make bikes an appealing option in such a car centric society?

[00:34:58] Well, I think that's already happening. I mean, if you're just looking at Burlington during the summer and watching people riding. I've noticed like one day, like twenty five cargo bikes and a whole host of electric bikes. So it's partially at that critical mass. The more, you know, people get out there and you. The first pioneers of the people that are capable of doing some. They see that the electric bike creates a sense of safety. There's, again, mitigates for poor infrastructure. You can get places a little bit faster. Your range has really increased. So that's that's kind of happening on some people are realizing, in fact, like in places like Germany, cargo bikes are actually outselling electric cargo bikes are outselling electric cars.

[00:35:47] Wow. Yeah. Not so far.

[00:35:50] Yeah, that's awesome. And this question also is thinking about the future when it by hand in November, who's also an intern for sustainable transportation? Vermont. Exactly. How do you think the rise e bikes will be factored into city planning initiatives?

[00:36:09] Oh, I think it's really big. It's already happening. You're. And there's lots of cities where there, you know, first of all, thinking about like bike share, isn't that awesome?

[00:36:20] Including the E bike and the bike share programs. You're starting to hear about like how Kado bikes and like and we have to like, consider like the infrastructure for those.

[00:36:34] And then there's concerns about, you know, electric bikes on class one bike path and things like that. You know, I'm particularly concerned about mountain bikes and people with electric mountain bikes and kind of disaster that can happen with that. Lot of people not having, you know, mountain bike etiquette or understanding, you know, responsible use trails and trail users. So I'm not particularly into electric mountain bikes. I'm really into electric bikes for transportation when needed. I ride a regular bike, too. I mean, I often ride my just my road bike around. But yeah, I see it really kind of amplifying the bicycle fact. And I think that some of the changes we're starting to see around the country, some of those due to the fact that just more people riding part of those electric bikes.

[00:37:24] Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much for being here. I think that that was our last question. Is there anything else that you'd like to say before the webinar?

[00:37:35] Yeah, just I guess the last thing you know, I've got all kinds of books here for people who are really interested in the technology question. Well, the greatest books I think ever written is something called Technology as Symptom and Dream by Robert Murmuration or premonition. And he follows like.

[00:37:58] Really, these silences and shadows of our technologies. And starting with this idea of linear perspective. So usually he goes to the whole art world and the invention of linear perspective, which if you look at it, art before the fourteen hundreds, you know. The way that artists now depict the landscape seemed all jumbled up and the size was not appropriate for like a housemen and a person that changed with this, I guess, linear perspective than any falls and all the way through our technologies, using everything from Frankenstein, the myth of Frankenstein and how technologies are actually making us disappear because their perspective is about a disappearing point.

[00:38:43] So it is really fascinating to read. Well, this isn't good thinking about doing a whole series of lectures on this book.

[00:38:54] Yeah, yeah. Awesome. And please send the information for that.

[00:38:58] If that ever happens and if you do it by consultation, you can just reach the bike and check out our website.

[00:39:08] Yeah, I'll link. Be bike in the comments section. And I also just wrote the name of the book in the. For anyone interested. But yeah. Thank you so much for being here. And we hope to have you back.

[00:39:21] So I love to come back.

[00:39:23] OK, well thank you everyone for engaging and asking your questions. And please tune in next week. Next week, we're going to have with us Deborah Sachs, and she's going to be talking about working together for transportation, agility and positive behavior change. So for that, next Friday at 12:00. And for anyone that is having issues, accessing our videos on Facebook, we also have a YouTube channel and that's linked in the comments section as well. So I hope everyone has a good rest of their writing.