Daily Questions/Comments
- Julia S asks how people recognize Achilles' armor even if he's
not in it?
- Look at the helmets: some cover the face. Could be that.
- Also, Patroclus is said to be a mighty warrior too.
- Maybe the way that people were recognized when in full armor
was more by the uniqueness of their equipment?
- But in the end, I think it's also a CPD (convenient plot
device).
- Graham Bates asks if there is any evidence of a bard being
particularly popular or well known?
- Well, we have names of the supposed authors of Homer and the
songs of the Epic Cycle, so maybe that is evidence of a sort.
But we don't have really good reason to think it is really
good evidence.
- We get better evidence from the fact that later on, in 5th
c. we have an inscription that says that the 3 best Homeric
performers at the Panathenaic Festivals got a prize, and we
have Plato's Ion in which the character Ion says he
has won prizes for his singing. So we know that in historic
times, there were individuals who were considered better than
other singers.
- There was a group of bards called Homeridae ('descendants of
Homer') from Chios. It was hereditary!
- Madeline B asks if she can write her paper about people being
introduced just to die?
- Yes and no. The assignment is to choose a passage and talk
very specifically about that passage, so you can't just write
about people introduced just to die. But you can choose a
passage that includes such a character and argue that that is
a strong Homeric trait by producing evidence of a lot of
others who are introduced just to die.
- Madeline B asks what she should do, since her copy has no line
numbers.
- Get one that has line numbers. Also, be sure to say which
translator you are working with if it's not the one ordered
for the class.
- Caleb W wants to know what is done to a dead man's armor as he
falls? and answers that his killer rushes to take it.
- I think that was meant as a quiz question, but it raises a
very important issue: killing someone was a feat. Taking their
armor was another feat. It accrued honor. And the armor itself
was the honor.
- Luke P asks why people risked their lives to strip armor?
- Because it was a feat, something to brag about: it added to
reputation and honor. Also, in a world of scarcity, it was
probably worth more than we can imagine in our world where TVs
outnumber humans and many families have more than one car per
person, and we all have multiple sets of clothes in our
closets and more rooms than people in our houses.
- Jillian F wants to know why Poseidon went to help the Greeks.
- POseidon helped build Troy's walls when Laomedon ruled Troy
(before Priam's time), but was dissed by the Trojans, so he
hates them.
- But later on he will rescue Aeneas from Achilles (fate was
that Aeneas would survive, but someone has to help fate, I
guess).
- He also is more dignified than that other gods when he and
Apollo say out of the fighting late in Iliad.
- Chase B wants more specifics about the paper.
- Basically, 4 pages, about 1000 words. Don't play around too
much with margins or font size or line spacing.
- Paige B asks how many examples are needed for each point in
the paper.
- I would definitely stop at 10 if they are super-easy to
find.
- But then I'd look at those 10 and see if maybe you can
figure out how they differ or are the same as your passage: in
other words, build more detail into your analysis if you have
a lot of examples.
- Logan M asks about the cover of Lombardo's Iliad.
- I think you could answer that as well as I.
- In my eyes, it's the D-day landing at Normandy, an iconic
taking of a beachhead in a massive war that we all have in our
mythology and history and imagination, and so it's parallel to
how the Trojan War was viewed in antiquity.
- Stephen M asks why Hercules is invoked so often in characters'
speeches? Is it because he was so well known?
- Hercules was from a previous generation and was an immediate
descendant of Zeus, so comparing him to someone in your world
would bring you closer to the gods, or would magnify the
importance of your own world.
- This is a world that thinks of the past as a time when gods
and men were even more intertwined. Think of Nestor's bragging
about his past, only more so?
- Lev asks if there are any movies that accurately depict the
events of the Iliad.
- I don't know. I can look into it. I haven't seen more than
one or two that try.
- Brandon G asks how colorful the map can be.
- Go to town: be artistic and use color to make your map
better as a visual tool of understanding.
- Or don't.
- The main point is to convey information clearly and well. So
bad handwriting, tiny labels, or too-huge labels would all be
bad, but anything that makes things easier to understand and
clearer is good.
- Madeline H wonders why to Ajaxes?
- They are major heroes, so it is very likely that they were
part of the tradition and it's just a coincidence that they
have the same name. It's perhaps more surprising that there
aren't more people who share names, no?
- Sofia S asks why the translator uses the b word: did they use
it back then?
- Well, not the English one, but they had insulting words for
women, and Helen calls herself a dog.
- From The Homer Encyclopedia, I find that dog is used
as an insult frequently (Hector is called it 4 times, for
instance). THe general insinuation of 'dog' as an insult is
that a person is cowardly, greedy, dissolute, and impudent.
- There are modern uses of the b word that simply go way
beyond how "dog" is used in Homer.
- Ari asks if the quizzes are a good model for studying for a
midterm content-wise.
- Somewhat: there will definitely be material like that in the
quizzes on the midterm. There will also be questions that ask
about what I lecture on and bigger themes than are covered in
a quiz. I'll set up a midterm guide later.
- Eamon D is surprised that Odysseus and Diomedes kill Dolon: it
seems like a breach of the warrior code.
- Well, it's presented pretty neutrally in the epic: they do
it and there's no comment about it being wrong or particularly
wrong because they said he'd live. What do we make of
that?
- I'd say that the gods weren't involved, no oaths, no offense
to them, so the big bad was not involved. Also, Agamemnon
strides up and kills outright someone Menelaus was going to
spare and hold for ransom. Doesn't seem to be judged at all.
- Emma M asks why there is emphasis on the animal skins the
Greek put on when they are about to fight the Trojans.
- Not sure where you are specifically finding that, but yeah,
animal skins. I don't know what to tell you.
- I think it's a fascinating question. It seems as much about
clothing as about defensive armor.
- And it calls to mind all sorts of things: if you wear a lion
skin, does that say that you are a lion? or that you killed a
lion? or was it just cool?
- Want to dig around and see if you can find anything about
this and present it to the class?
- Katie B asks whether there is a history of armies using
similar tactics to those in Iiad?
- My impression is that the tactics of the epics are a bit
confusing and perhaps a mash-up of different eras or styles of
fighting. Often it seems like nothing but single combat. But
then we have interlocked shields, which suggests infantry
formations. And we have shields that are huge (Ajax) and some
that are small. And different uses of the weapons.
- In the end, I don't know, but I'd like to.
- Again, want to dig around and see what "experts" say and
report to the class?
- Brian C asks if other Homeric works have the same types or
repetition or is it just Iliad.
- In terms of long works, we only have one other, Odyssey,
and it is similar.
- We have some shorter works called Homeric Hymns,
but they seem to date from later times and to be the works of
individuals.
- John R asks why characters who are introduced don't last long?
- Would it be too cheeky to say it's because of the war?
- It seems to me a very different model than our model of
literature, in which there are a limited number of real
characters and then there are "extras" or just other people.
- But there are works that have large numbers of people:
Tolstoy.
- Emma O asks why Zeus is so wishy-washy and which side is he
really on?
- So there are three versions of what the "will of Zeus" is:
- he intends to honor Thetis' request that the Greek suffer
- he intends to destroy Troy because Paris violated
hospitality rules
- he intends to destroy the age of heroes.
- They all play a role, although the first and second conflict
a bit.
- Zeus is also kind of the enforcer/follower of fate, so he
goes with what is fated.
John
Henry B.B. asks: why does Homer suddenly jump into the 1st person point of view?
-
In the passages you cite, John Henry, the author uses the first person to invoke the
Muses: “Tell me now, you Muses who have dwellings on Olympus…” The author also does this in the very beginning of the
Iliad,
called the proem, when he says “Rage: sing, goddess, Achilles’ rage…” I think that by breaking out of the traditional narration into the first person, the author (and maybe even the bards who came after!) is asking the Muses, goddesses of the arts, to help
him complete the long and laboriously memorized poem in real-time. What effect does this change in point of view have on you?
Seamus
S. asks: are type scenes used as a way for bards to remember the epic?
-
Excellent question, Seamus, and yes, I personally think so. The way that each type
scene has a strategic formula inherent in it, even at different times in the book, would probably make it easier for someone to remember a type scene when it came up in the recitation of the poem. For example, how Dr. Bailly talked about type scenes like greetings:
they generally have a character hand a cup of wine to another, some welcoming/farewell words, a prayer, an invitation to libate/pray. If every greeting in the
Iliad
has a basic formula like this, all a bard has to do is plug in the specific characters and their actions required in this scene, and boom! You’ve got yourself a memorized type scene.
Elizabeth
N. is from upstate NY, and wonders why so many towns there have classical monikers.
-
I have absolutely had this question before, but never went to look it up! According
to Wikipedia, the person responsible for the towns Ithaca, Aurelius, Ovid, and Ulysses, NY, was a clerk who was particularly interested in the classics. Corinth, NY is named after the book in the Bible,
Corinthians
(conversely named for the people at a church in Corinth, Greece.) If you’re
interested in other cities, it could be worth a Wikipedia stroll!
Kate
F. asks: why does Athena like Odysseus so much? What is the connection?
-
Athena is the divine counselor to Odysseus because she is a goddess of wisdom and warfare.
Odysseus is known as cunning and shrewd, and if there’s anyone a goddess like her would favor, it’s him. He shows himself repeatedly to be one of the most intelligent and reliable Achaeans on the battlefield, and for this Athena counsels him all the way through,
and continues to counsel him (and even his son) in the Odyssey.
Lucy
S. asks: would it have been morally wrong for Diomedes to kill Dolon if he had finished supplicating?